The World's Best Men's Sportwear and Apparel
We're pleased to have with us on The Crux today, the CEO of Rhone Apparel, Nate Checketts.
Kyle Duford, The Crux (KD): We've got so many questions for you and it's an honor to have you with us. We're going to touch on a lot of different things across brand, coms, product and even family. But first, give us a little bit of rundown of your life, where you came from kind of like pre Rhone. What were you doing up to starting this business?
Nate Checketts, Rhone Apparel (NC): Just life story. I'll try and give it in a couple of minutes or less. But I grew up in the northeast, predominantly born in Boston. I spent a little time in Utah. My my dad had a job out there and then we moved to Connecticut when I was seven. I grew up in a big family. There are six kids in our family. I'm the third. So, in the middle. For me, growing up and still family has always kind of been everything, we're very close. My three brothers are still my closest friends. One of my co-founders at the company is my younger brother, Ben, who is our creative director.
I was a little bit of a quirky kid. I was always selling something or doing something. I didn't know that it was kind of being called an entrepreneur. But I was always just very interested in lemonade stands or I would find my grandma's cherry tree, pull down cherries and sell them to people on the sidewalk. My grandparents lived close to a golf course. So, I'd go and I dive into a pond and fish out the golf balls and sell them back to the golfers after they hit them in.
KD: That's funny.
NC: And then when I was 15, my mom told me that I needed to help contribute to this fourth summer camp fee that I had signed up for I was excited about. So, I started mowing lawns, like every other kid. But I quickly realized that like that didn't scale. If I only had a couple days during the week to be able to do it, I can only make so much money. I really wanted this one Fender guitar that I was super psyched about. So, I looked around, I was like, “You know what, I could teach kids how to play sports, and if I got enough kids to sign up, I could actually make quite a bit of money.”
So, I went to the Little League Soccer grounds and I started passing out a flyer for this camp that I called Boy's World of Adventure. In the first year, then my mom started getting calls and she was like, “Hey, what is this Boy's World of Adventure? I have parents calling me about this.” I was like, “Oh, I started a summer camp.” She's like, “Where are you going to hold summer camp?” I was like, In the backyard. Obviously.”
Rob Reedy, ECHOS Communications (RR): That's awesome.
“So, the idea of starting a clothing business wasn't something that I dreamt up my whole life. What I love was building things. So, when we started looking at this, I was like, “On paper, there's a business opportunity.” ”
NC: My parents somewhat reluctantly agreed. I hired my two younger brothers as my counselors and one of my friends. That's my first real taste of what it meant to start something. The camp ended up running for eight years. And by the end, we were making like 40 grand a summer teaching kids how to play sports and swim swim lessons. It was awesome. I bought my first car with money that I made in the camp. It was a total beater, but I was able to help contribute to the sports camp fund. Full disclosure point, is basically is I grew up in a very privileged household. My dad was a successful sports executive. But I don't think my parents raised us in a way that we fully appreciate it that way. We always had Saturday jogs. My parents were really focused on helping to teach us those lessons and hard work.
So, that's how I got started. Then out of college, well, as a junior in college, I started my first business, my first like real world official business, which was a mobile technology company that I ended up selling to the 49ers. Left there and went and joined the NFL.
RR: The San Francisco 49ers?
NC: San Francisco 49ers. So, having grown up in and around the world of sports, I saw this kind of weird problem, which is fans didn't want to miss a minute of the action. These tickets are super high price and then you go you wait in line for the concession stand and the concession stand, I don't know, we've all experienced, you get out there to go and get a hotdog and all sudden you hear that stands erupt and you're like, “Oh my gosh, I paid 200 bucks for a ticket and I missed like the best moment, the moment it's going to be on sports eye, and I just missed it.” So, we developed first of its kind application to allow fans to order food and merchandise from the stands using their cell phone. At first, it was all text message base. We actually got patents on natural language processing, and found some really interesting tech and IP there. The iPhone came out. We launched an early iPhone application. So, the biggest challenge with the business was that these stadiums and arenas that were called the Verizon Center, and AT&T center actually had a really poor cell service. So, you couldn't download applications, you couldn't use the applications. But we have all this interesting IP that we knew that tech back end would catch up with the wireless infrastructure.
So, the 49ers, I helped advise them on it. So, now if you go to Levi's Stadium, you check in with your phone, you can check the bathroom line from your phone, like it's a red, yellow green on how busy it is. You can get food delivered right to your seat, depending on where you're sitting, or you can order it and pick it up from the concession stand. You can see different camera angles on recent plays, right from your phone, and it was all kind of part of this initial vision, an idea that we had back in the day.
I somewhat reluctantly entered into the world of sports. But that was a big introduction for me. I was so fortunate to have a father that was successful and had a good name there. He deserves all the credit in the world for that. But it got to the NFL, and I was kind of miserable in a big corporate environment, having run this weird startup venture tech thing. And now, I have to put on a suit and tie every single day. I'm in the office, it's like, it's very clear that if I disappeared, nothing had changed at the NFL, people still watch football. The way to explain it to people is like you go from riding a roller coaster where everything's exciting and terrifying, and then everything is just kind of like, yeah. This is the NFL by the way. I mean, imagine if I had gone to work and like Ernst & Young, or some other kind of corporate environment.
So, I just quickly knew that I needed to get back into the startup world, and it was at that time that I picked my head up and started thinking about what was out there that the idea of Rhone came about and started pursuing it. That was seven years ago.
KD: Well, it sounded like you came a long way from that first Fender guitar.
NC: Which I still have.
KD: That's amazing.
NC: I just bought it. It was like 300 or 400 bucks. It wasn't even one of those crazy nice Fenders. But it was such a big deal. We still had it downstairs. He's up on the wall.
KD: That's phenomenal. What I took away from that is, it's kind of you've always had a vision for something that you're passionate about, success. When it came to starting Rhone, can you tell us a little bit about, like, what ignited it? Because it's one to be like, I want to start a lifestyle brand. It takes some cash flow, it takes some revenue, some just have a set amount of money be like I hope it works, do a cut and sew. They can only make what they can afford to do it. But it seems that you were in this nexus that you were capable and able to kind of leapfrog that. Could you talk a little bit about how that worked out?
NC: Yeah, I mean, I wish I could say that we had this perfect plan and operating regimen put together on how we were going to grow the business. The truth is, is that we really started categorically at what we thought the opportunity was. Some of this came from my education background is I realized and started my first business. I didn't do any of this work. So, I was determined in starting the second business that I would actually really understand the market that I was considering entering. The idea came about because I got a pair of Lululemon sweatpants for Christmas. My brother-in-law was like, “You don’t wear those.” I was like, “Why not?” He's like, “Look at the packaging. Look at the logo. This is a women's yoga brand.” And I was like, “Yeah, but they're actually pretty comfortable. I’m not throwing them away.” And then when I was at the NFL, Budweiser who's a big partner of ours sent a box of Lululemon gear for some of the women in the office, and they sent Nike gear for the men in the office for this event coming up. It started this natural conversation, because I was like, “Oh wait, I actually have some Lululemon sweatpants.” And the guy next to me, said, “Oh, that's cool. Do you buy your underwear at Victoria's Secret?”
So, I remember thinking, this is bizarre. These guys clearly are pioneers, leaders in the space. They're starting to make men's products. Men are slow to adopt it for a variety of reasons. I didn't have that emotional, visceral reaction. I can't wear a brand called X or, it was more just a curiosity of how somebody could could feel that way. I started talking to a bunch of people and realized is that most men's brands, or most men's activewear, was sold by the big box brands that we had all grown up with, Nike, Under Armour, Reebok, Adidas, and they were 80%, wholesale distributed, meaning most of the products were being purchased by another vendor like Dick's Sporting Goods, or someplace like that.
And then you have all of this growth in the women's space. The women's brands out there were predominantly direct distributed, meaning they were direct to customers either had their own retail stores, or they were selling over ecom. Generally, they were at a premium to these other brands. So, they're selling direct to customers, which should be more economically favorable and they're more expensive, which should be more economically favorable that on a margin basis, meaning that their take home for the product they sell, it was about the same as Nike and Under Armour. What does that tell you? It means they're investing a lot more into the quality of the product that they're making.
So, we said, “Okay, well, great. There must be some men's brands that are doing that.” When we looked and when we researched, we couldn't find any. You could find men's brands that were specifically targeted at triathlons, or maybe cycling, but nobody that really kind of understood this idea of performance wear or performance lifestyle products. When we looked at it, categorically, we're like in the next 10 years, this is all anybody's going to want to be wearing. The pandemic is only accelerated. It's all we want to wear now. So, we thought, “A men's focus directly distributed brand could be really, really successful and there’s a huge addressable market.” That was kind of the impetus for getting started.
KD: That's awesome. I actually met Rob, when I was working at Chrome Industries, and I was in charge of ecommerce. We actually had a wholesale channel, brick and mortar and direct consumer online. The margin was incredible. I mean, our margin was 72, 75 points, because exactly what you're talking about. We didn't have the middleman and now a lot of digitally native vertical brands are following that, which we'll get to in a little while. But it's just you're right, the margin is there, which is what is the name of the game these days, right?
NC: Yeah, but I mean, I think that's what's incredible is, we're not taking that extra margin between what it means to be wholesale distributed, and direct distributed, and sticking it into our pocket. We're taking that extra margin and putting it back into the quality of the products. Obviously, Nike and Under Armour and Adidas, they're very successful, economically speaking brands. I mean, they're some of the largest companies, Adidas in Germany, but Nike and Under Armour in the US. So, those margin profiles work. It's just the product isn't very good, in my opinion. Obviously, it depends.
So, what happens if you invest in better fabric, and better cut and sew in seamless technology, in different texts. We pioneered a textile technology called Fusion, which uses golden silver particles that get infused into the fibers of the garment, and after 100 washes, is still 98 plus percent effective at fighting odor. So, the typical garment gets washed with pesticides, and after 15, to 20 washes, loses more than 50% of its effectiveness in fighting odor. That's the industry standard.
So, by investing in the quality of the fabric, the quality of the garment, the right supply chain, that's where we're putting our margin. And yeah, our price cost a bit more, but we're not making more money than when Nike or Under Armour. We’re just making more better product.
RR: I think that's fundamentally but your fan base loves. But during the startup and during when you initiated it, did you always have community on your radar to build a community? Can you tell us a little bit about, your road to get there and what you've done to establish this? I know it is strong personally.
NC: Yeah. I mean, so when we were thinking about this, you asked the question earlier, how we were prepared to do this. I mean, we were fundamentally not prepared. We didn't come from the world of retail, we didn’t come to the world of fashion, not even really ecommerce. And personally, I wouldn't be what you guys do, I wasn't the kind of kid who grew up loving fashion or clothing. I wore whatever my mom set out in the morning. I didn't ever care. I was much more of a functional like, “I'll wear whatever is comfortable.” As a kid.
So, the idea of starting a clothing business wasn't something that I dreamt up my whole life. What I love was building things. So, when we started looking at this, I was like, “On paper, there's a business opportunity.” And my co-founders who are very much like absolutely in love with fashion and apparel and building incredible products, they were really excited about that. But for me, I started looking at the world through this lens of I have three sons. I look at the way the world in which they're growing up versus the world I grew up in, and they are faced with this idea of toxic masculinity is a huge topic, gender equality, and I believe so strongly and firmly in gender equality, and that we need to do – we need to be far more proactive than we have been historically, in getting to those places. But they're not going to learn those lessons by being told, here's all the things that your predecessors have done wrong, and ll these negative messages. They need to hear about positive messages of people, of men, who fight for gender equality, who are doing good things, who are uplifting, who stand for racial equality and giving back and stand up for LGBTQ rights.
They need to see the positive with the negative. I thought about kind of this male identity crisis that I felt myself going through a little bit, and I could see my friends going through. This idea of building a brand, where men felt they could be vulnerable, where they felt they could be comfortable talking about the things that they don't understand. You talked about men's mental health. It’s a huge, huge problem. Not only in this country, but globally. We suck at talking about our feelings. That’s not me on a qualitative basis speaking, that's what the research and the data shows. Men are 30 plus percent less likely to seek professional help when they're dealing with anxiety or depression. Suicide is one of the number – is the top three killers for men in this country.
So, I wanted to build a brand that talked about mental health, more than it talks about physical health in the active workspace. And active wear has long been dominated by run faster, lift more, perform physically, and that's part of what we do. But I really have believed that overall wellness will be achieved when you take care of your mental health, your physical health, and your spiritual health. So yeah, that's been a big part of kind of the creation of the brand and how we think about it. If all we do is make great clothing and sell clothing, that will be a very unsatisfying endeavor for me.
KD: I mean, man, we could end this right now. Because you just, I think, won everyone over with that. I appreciate that, personally, because we feel the same here at the office, in my family. I know, Rob does as well. Gender equality, LGBTQ rights, and just the fact that no one's talking about these things these days. My wife is getting her degree in psychotherapy. You hear the stories all the time that men won't talk in groups, and so they have no one to talk to.
I mean, I really appreciate that. I want to steer the conversation a little bit. I want to come back to that in a little while and I think Rob might too. But let's do it back to branding for one second, because we're talking about you just said it, you wanted to build a brand based on fundamentals and what you believed in rather than just. But you kind of are a ruler archetype, right? I mean, the Rhone, if you looked at it from the outside, and I had some of our guys do that here I mean, your relentless pursuit of quality products that do good, that aren't going to harm the environment, that last longer. I mean, you have a line of products called Rain. I mean, that's a ruler archetype right there. And then the blog is called The Pursuit. Everything you do, it seems like if you're going to do it, Rhone wants to do it from a position of strength and being the best. Is that so you can get that message across that we just talked about? Or is it you just have this relentlessness about you that wants to make high quality products? Or maybe it's both?
NC: Yeah, I mean, I guess it just comes back to this idea of like, I remember when we were getting started, I spoke to this marketing executive and he was bragging about how he was able to take a really terrible product and he knew how to market is so effectively, that he could still build a multimillion dollar business with it. I left that meeting, so disgusted by the fact that I want to be the inverse of that. I want our product to be better than we're actually able to market it. I want people to be surprised by how good it is, despite our inability to message that.
So, I just think it's part of our fundamental thesis that, as people dive in the layers of the business, there's always this idea that you're going to uncover something. I want us to be authentically who we project, not in a preachy way, but just in – let’s just be authentic about who we are. We care about how we treat our people. We care about how we treat our suppliers. We care about how we treat the environment, and we care about making really great stuff. By no means are we perfect at any of those things. We struggle like everyone else. But those are the standards that we hold ourselves to and we think our customer is kind of the same way. The guy who buys our stuff, they want quality, and they expect and demand quality in what they wear, because they work really hard and they play really hard. They almost take everything seriously, except for hopefully, they don't take themselves too seriously, which is probably a good life lesson for all of us.
RR: I think you're right. What struck me, coming into your brand is I had the first touch point in 2017. I touched and felt that product at a show, Move, I believe at the Javits Center, many moons ago. So, I've been tracking it since then. But recently, I've been turned on to the 12 Pursuits and I think that there's a rally cry there. I thought what’s interesting is, it helps stretch the mind. It shapes your daily routine, it challenges you to pursue progress, I feel in every way of life. Some of the pursuits that I saw were mental health, gratitude, connection, and fatherhood. Can you talk a little bit about that, because I think that's a special part of the brand?
NC: Yeah, well, I give my brother Ben, all the credit for this and Jenny, our editor at The Pursuit. We started with this idea, when I was 19 somebody gave me this – it was like three pages on Benjamin Franklin. Benjamin Franklin was famous for these 13 virtues that have worked and fast. The 13 verses, he basically took one virtue and even focus on it for a month or two months, I can't remember the exact period. But his feeling was, he couldn't be good at everything all at once. He needed to really focus on it. So, he would read about it, he would practice it, he would write about it. And then once he felt he had achieved some level of mastery, he would move on to the next one, and then he would kind of cycle back.
I think there's something really powerful in our ability. But we all want to sleep better. We know we need to hydrate. We know we should meditate.” But taking all that in at once is crushing. It's like overwhelming. So, how do we structure something where on a content basis, we just focus relentlessly on one thing at a time and we bring our customers in along for the journey.
So, I brought this idea to them and I said, “I think there's something really powerful in our ability. But we all want to sleep better. We know we need to hydrate. We know we should meditate.” But taking all that in at once is crushing. It's like overwhelming. So, how do we structure something where on a content basis, we just focus relentlessly on one thing at a time and we bring our customers in along for the journey. So, we're going to get the articles about it, we're going to bring experts, we could even possibly, like curate certain products that they might want to buy. That's what we've put together at the 12 Pursuits. The response has been awesome. We've been doing it in my household as well.
So, this month is all that responsibility. We've taught ourselves how to compost. We've never composted our house before. We switched all of our lights out to LED lights, because a significant reduction in power usage. It’s little things like that, that I think is really important. Last month was all about sleep. We tracked our sleep all month. I do feel like carrying those things forward. has helped me in a way versus saying like, “I just want to get better at everything.” And the next step is to create a community where guys feel like they can talk about. “How's it going? How's your sleep going? How can we help hold each other accountable to get better?” It's really authentic and consistent with who we're trying to be as a brand.
RR: It's not like a PSA. It's not like you're pushing it. That's why I think it's just generally great value of the brand. It's like you're providing something to people, which is fundamentally the foundation of the community. It’s a competition.
NC: It’s providing value. I love that you use that word, because we talked about it all the time. We can't just be a company that the only thing we provide is great products. We think of ourselves as like a friend to our customer and we all have relationships where it feels like it's one sided, and one side is pulling, and it's draining, and nobody likes those relationships. Our customers give us our livelihood. If we don't have customers, we can't exist. So, what can we give them above and beyond products? Well, we have the ability to provide content that isn't influenced by marketing dollars. Meaning if you go to any publication, whether or not they want to admit it, their editorial content is partially driven by the advertisers on their site. We're fortunate that we don't have to be directed that way. That gives us a unique opportunity to build content based on exactly what we think our audience needs. [
RR: That's great. Very cool. At the end and it's a relationship. It's a give and take, and I just kept coming back. I just felt it's like the rally cry of the brand is what I'm feeling from it personally. So, it's really cool.
KD: You mentioned, Ben is a big part of this, which is awesome. I remember seeing you posted, I think on Instagram maybe about a year ago, maybe it's during the pandemic. It was this awesome, kind of like lifestyle video that he had done. I didn't know until then that he had worked with you and I think that's awesome. But he's worked with you. You've talked about the importance of family, you've got three sons. I read the story about your son, when he hit his head brought me to tears, how transparent you were talking about authenticity. I really appreciated that because no one talks about that from a father's point of view.
But so now you're CEO, you've got three sons, your brother’s working for you, you still live in and around the area where your parents were when you grew up. How do you managed to balance being a CEO and fatherhood? I mean, maybe have to wait for The Pursuit to talk about it, but I'd love to hear from you.
NC: I think but that's a good plug. The Pursuit for June is fatherhood. So, we're going to talk a lot about fatherhood there. But I think the problem with talking about balance is I really think it's a political myth. I think this idea of work life balance, it's like, how do you really measure that? Is that based on the number of hours? Is that based on the quality of the relationships? The one thing that I've learned, I grew up with an incredible father. I won the lottery when it comes to parents. By the way, when people are like, “Your dad deserves all the credit for your success.” I'm like, “The only thing that you're wrong about there is you're not giving my mom enough credit.” I deserve zero credit for anything good. I deserve all the blame for all the bad because trust me, there's enough there. But my parents deserve full credit for anything good that happens in my life. I really won the lottery with good parents.
So, when I think about my dad, my dad was really busy. He worked his tail off. But I always knew he was there for me. He was there for me in the big moments. He made time. Effort was the biggest thing with him, because I knew he would be there when I needed him and I still know that. So, this idea that you have to get a certain number of hours to achieve a level of balance, I think you kind of have to be all in it, with your full heart in both. This quote that I can't get out of my head is, “If you want to get something done, give it to a busy person”, which sounds so counterintuitive. But you hear it and you instantly know that it's true. Why is that? There's a same number of hours in the day for all of us. But the difference between somebody who's kind of living life to the full extent, he's living life, maybe balanced and trying to be a good father, and creating work is they are just in it. They are working hard every single day. They know, I know, I am always out of balance to some degree. There might be moments or days where I feel like you know what, I really nailed it. But for the most part, I'm always a little bit out of balance. It's the micro adjustments to try and get my life back in and the fact that I try and take time to think about that, that for me is balanced, is that I never lose sight of that.
Because the self-evaluation is what will get me back when you adjust. There are times where I swing too far and work suffers because I've spent a little too much time on personal family life. There are definitely times where I spent too much time at work. By the way, I never feel like I'm not going to the park. I just know that I'm never going to give up the pursuit of trying to get it right.
RR: I think that's the always on mentality that you have, or that people have in this position, because it's almost – I’d like to hear specifically in the always on category, what is the inspiration for you with the brand? Is it to get above the competition? Is it to bring a better product to the market? What's the motivator in general? Because some brands have it, I just want to create a product, sell, earn and get out. Others are like, “I want to be part of the community and build a product that serves them.” So, I'd like to hear a little bit about your vision of what keeps you going. What keeps the brand going? [
NC: When I was getting into the city to work at the NFL, I was on a train, I was thinking about this idea of the fact that I didn't love working in a big corporate environment. I was like, “What do I really want? What do I want in my life?” I remember, the phrase that came to my mind is I want to build a company that matters. Underneath that I put that doesn't mean I need to cure cancer. Because I also know that I'm – somebody could do that, that's probably not me.
So, what drives me and Rhone is like I want to build a brand that matters. When you think about that, there's a scale piece to that, and there's an authenticity, like impact piece of that. You can't ignore either. You need both because you can be like the most authentic, deeply motivating brand. But if you speak to five people, your ability to have real influence is limited. You can be a brand that reaches a lot of people, but it's super shallow, and doesn't have any – I give you lots of examples of this, especially in pop culture, people that reach a lot of individuals, but aren't spreading levels of positivity and positively impacting people's lives. That wouldn't fit the bill for me either.
So, I think what motivates me is this idea of building something that matters that has a certain level of scale and there are numbers associated with that, and influence and impact by being authentic to who we're trying to be.
RR: So, it seems like it's not about chasing competitors, that a lot of brands fall into it. It feels to me that honestly, you've identified your community, your group, your tribe, and you're serving them. Would that be fair?
NC: Yeah, I mean, I think I'm a competitive human. I just have realized since at young age that we're always going to fall victim to competing with the person next to us. But what actually moves the needle is when you realize the only person you need to be pushing is against yourself, because comparison is the thief of joy. As you wrap yourself up in comparison, or success relative to others, it is unwinning equation. You cannot win, because we're never going to be bigger – maybe not never, but I don't see in my lifetime, that we're going to be bigger than Nike.
So, I might compare myself to brand A today and correct, we did have a brand A, but then I'm comparing myself to brand B. You're just always going to find a way to make yourself miserable that way. So, I don't know. I'm not perfect at it. I don’t know the answers. I just know that competitiveness with your own goals and chasing your own goals, is a far better long-term motivator than a relative comparison, like absolute comparison versus relative comparison. [
RR: I agree. I think once you start to step away from the robbery of what always looking over what the other camp is doing, the more positive that the brand is, both internally and your outward facing conviction towards your community. So, I agree with that.
NC: But by the way, it's important to underscore. That is really hard. It's hard to do that and I definitely have been victim to – so I don't speak any place that like I figured this out. I think I just know it mentally and I have to re-center myself off and not put myself, comparing myself to people.
KD: It's interesting to hear you talk. I mean, as a former business owner, Rob owns his company, and just working with brands all the time. It's almost like you're making me rethink my strategy when I talk to them. Because you come from such a just spirit, which is, I mean, I don't want to be kitschy, but it sounds pure. Like that's really what you want to do. And and all these questions for you about being a disrupter like Warby Parker, Bonobos. It's almost like that was the result of chasing your heart, which was provide great product, great service, help people understand how to be authentic and live their lives fully. It's almost like you're in it for the right reasons. I don't say that lightly, because in my day to day life, we talked to a lot of folks who are in business to make money, and I don't look down on that at all. But they're also not always fulfilled. It just seems like you are. You get it. It's kind of inspiring, to be honest. So, I mean, I'm kind of going to ditch half my questions for you. Because I don't know. I don't know what your response to that would be. Because I'm sure you hear it a lot. But it's refreshing, I guess.
NC: I really appreciate you saying that, but I’m human and I think I definitely have been a victim to all – like to wanting to win and to achieve certain levels of success. But I think the thing that I realized is we just all spend so much time at work, we better enjoy it. Right? People might say, “Well, I just, I just worked so that I can provide for my family.” And by the way, I want to acknowledge the fact that we are super privileged to be able to have that choice. Not everybody does have that choice. But I think to the extent that you feel like you have that ability to choose, finding something that you can be passionate and all in on, helps you – for me, it helps me in every aspect.
So yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm flattered and honored to hear you say that. I also will acknowledge I don't always think of myself that way or feel like I'm doing it perfectly either. So, it's a never-ending challenge to try and get there.
RR: It's like a goal and a stretch goal for a lot. It’s like the work life balance. But actually, if you think of your work as life and you think of your life, like everything becomes a line. I think that's at least my personal goal of to strive for. Because you're right, you spent so much time at work, you spent so much time with your colleagues, limited time with your family and those need to calibrate to be the algorithm of happiness. So, I think it's just an ongoing life mission for a lot of people.
NC: Yeah, I'm just sensitive too, to people hearing us talk about this and figuring out like, aspiring to get to something, and then torturing themselves, because they don't feel like they're already there. This person figured out work life balance, or the thing that I've been talking about recently is this idea of sustainability. We hear brands talking about sustainability. It's generally a lot. I mean, it is not sustainable to create fabric, ship fabric, create trims, ship trims, assemble product, ship it to a warehouse, and then send it to an end consumer. What we can do is we can be more responsible about how we do all of those things, to lessen the impact that we have on the environment. But to use it as a marketing ploy to then say, “Hey, we're sustainable, therefore you should but us.” It just has never sat well with me. It's the same thing, because it's discouraging to other people were like, “I'm not sustainable, therefore, I should do nothing.” It's like, “Well, I don't have work life balance, therefore, I should just give up.” No. There's so much of a process in the middle. The worst thing you can do is stop or get discouraged by it.
RR: I completely agree. I think what stood out with me was, it's on everywhere, and you're so passionate and transparent about it. We are not sustainable, we are responsible. That was a huge driver. This is kind of leads me into the next thinking I had when I dove deeper in this, but your level of transparency you have with the brand, I think it's remarkable. Unlike most where they do everything in a cave, and they just show the alpha to present to evoke a response and emotion so they buy. I think you have an interesting stance where the goals are online, your business practice, your supply chain, the faith. I started to think like, why this level of transparency? It seems like you're putting yourself out more than most, which is respectable. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on, on why this level.
NC: I think that for a long time, it was okay, and you could get away with things because the world didn't demand the level of transparency that it does now. But also, it just feels inauthentic to do it any other way. It feels like if we're not – I don't know. I just don't feel like I can live a lie. Everybody knows this about me. I'm a terrible poker player. I would lose every time in poker, because you know how I'm feeling generally most of the time. So, I think the business to some degree reflects a little bit of that. If we're not doing something well, then let's talk about it. Because we're all a work in process, all of us.
I think from an inclusivity standpoint, that was a hard thing about working with athletes and ambassadors, of like holding them on a pedestal being like, “Here's what you need to look to achieve.” We are working a sum, but if that's our core marketing message, me seeing product on a 23-year-old, gifted God talented athlete, and therefore me now wanting to wear that product, is just never resonating. That person has been incredibly blessed athletically. They've worked hard, they've trained hard. But my focus right now is on living the best life that I can. Being a great father, giving back to my kids. I want a brand that speaks to that. I want a brand that speaks to that level of work in progress, you haven't arrived, you're still trying.
KD: But again, that just goes to what Rob was saying, is that you're incredibly authentic and it carries through the brand, which is awesome. Even down to, I think Rob referring to your About page, or your cluster of pages there. I mean, you even talked about the man in the arena. I'm a big fan of Brené Brown. She quotes that in her book Daring Greatly, this idea of authenticity and how you live and it's just really refreshing. It really is. I wanted to get to talking about authenticity and being transparent, talking about your faith and how that helps you through life. I’m going to say for another time, but it's an incredible story that you have.
So, I just have to end with this. We asked this of every guest we have and that is we call the show The Crux for a reason. The crux is the most complex, difficult part of a climbing route or bouldering problem, and you have to figure it out. And there's cruxes in life, there's cruxes in our careers. What was your Crux setting up Rhone or maybe in your life, and how did you solve that? In light of what we've been speaking of it, I honestly can't wait to hear the answer.
NC: I think there are so many cruxes that we come across. I think the hard thing is that you might feel like you're over one and that's a relief. But there's going to be another one around the corner. I think it's more in the way that you approach it. Is this a chance for me to grow and develop because you don't grow and develop when things are easy. We grow and develop when things are hard. So, I'll highlight one, but just there's been several, and there are several more, I'm sure in my future. But when I was launching my first real company, this company was called Mangia technologies, we pioneered a mobile software, we had all these really cool patents, and we got ourselves into a really difficult position financially. I had to lay off half of the team and I had to figure out how to get out of it.
To put it in perspective, my wife and I, we were married, we got married really young, I was 22. We decided to go without health insurance. In a period of three months, she got pregnant. It was unexpected. We didn't expect her to be expecting. I broke my leg, which was the first bone I've ever broke into my body and then a month later, I got diagnosed with type one diabetes. My business was plummeting. I'm dealing with the biggest health challenge that I've ever faced. I remember getting in my car, and thinking, “How on earth did I allow myself to get to this point? How did I allow myself to – I worked so hard. How did this happen?”
That was a real moment for me where I just said, “This is not how my story ends and this is not how I'm going to let this story end.” I remember, I went back and I pulled out a big whiteboard and I'd whiteboard it out, this is how the next five years are going to go. I immediately went and started working. I got three consulting jobs. I used that to handle short term income. I was able to sell the business and get our investors their money back. I picked myself up. I learned so much about myself during that process. I learned a lot about how to handle challenging times. But there have been several iterations since then. Like I said, there's going to be more.
So, you always think that successful people haven't faced trials. The truth is, is that most successful people have gone through such hard things and you just don't know it until you meet them. My dad is a great example of this. I just bought a house. I tend to just talk, so interrupt me anytime.
KD: No, I love it.
NC: My wife and I moved during the pandemic, like many. But we had a really terrible, and I put terrible in like first world problem quotations. We sold our house, right in March, right as the pandemic was hitting. We closed on a new house that we were really excited about and a week before the close, the seller pulled out because he thought he could make more money. We were so like frustrated about this. Everybody's like you should sue them. I'm not a litigious person. I decided not to go down that path. We ended up going and finding a temporary solution and then we found another house that we admittedly didn't like as much and I felt like we were overpaying for and I was really frustrated about it. You had the perfect setup, this is going to be great and it didn't go our way. Gosh, now I can't believe I allowed this to happen.
I called my dad up and he's like, “I know exactly what you're going through. Except for my situation was a lot worse.” And I was like, “What are you talking about? Everything works out for you.” I didn't say that to him. But in my mind, I'm thinking like, because he just has a way of it seems like everything, he just figures it out. He said, “You don’t remember or fully know this story.” But when I was three years old, my parents got into this exact same situation, or very similarly and they ended closing down a house that they didn't like. My dad felt he had overpaid. He’s really frustrated about it. They were moving houses. In the process of that move, his brother helped him put all the furniture on the back of a truck, they were driving and he jumped in the back to hold it in. He fell out and hit his head and had the same exact injury that my, now nine-year-old son had two years ago. Except that my uncle there, he didn’t make it. He left for kids and his wife at a very young age.
For six months, every time my dad drove home to this house that he felt he'd overpaid for, he went past the point where his brother had fallen out of the truck that he was driving and lost his life. If you think about what that does to someone and everybody who knows my dad would tell you what an incredible human he is. But very few people know the kinds of things that he has been through in his life. It just puts everything into perspective. We figured out a way how to let these moments define you and carry you, not that you would repeat them. Not that you want to go find another crux, but that by them, they have defined how you're going to live and appreciate the next step in your journey. I know for me, I've had several of those moments and business and personally. But again, I just think it really helps define you and helps you meet your next challenge.
KD: I mean, it is remarkable. You sound like great people, as well, as great leaders. And man, this has been a privilege. It seems almost weird to say this, but if people want to buy some products, what would you tell them? Let's switch gears in a very different tack. I apologize for that. But what would you tell people? We didn't get a chance to talk about your bricks and mortar stores and how you totally revolutionize that experience. But go ahead and pitch where people can buy Rhone.
NC: The best place is our site, rhone.com. And then we have three retail stores in New York and one opening up in Boston next week on Newbury Street, that we're really excited about. And then we have great wholesale partners. We’re Peloton’s biggest men's partner, Equinox’s biggest men's partner and a great business with Nordstrom, and a few other great wholesale partners. I encourage people to check it out and I hope that when they try one piece, they fall in love with it. Because we believe we can outfit 80% of the guys closet, we want every time they think of what they need, they don't need to overthink it, they can just go around and they can find great underwear, great basics, which we call our essentials line, great performance activewear, and great commuter loungewear. So, we'd love people to not just come and buy product, but to get involved in the community and contribute.
KD: That's awesome. I love your stuff. Like I said, I'm a cyclist and a runner. Whenever I'm playing or even just post gym, I either throw in this Quarter Zip or I'm using your [inaudible 00:47:06]. I can’t remember. I think it's the seven-inch that I wear. But now I know why they don't stink. I'm just a compulsive sweater. I mean, just look at me the wrong way and I'll just start sweating. It's ridiculous. I literally have to bring t shirts to the gym. I never knew why the running stuff didn't smell. Honest to God, I had no idea. I’ve thrown away so many things because my wife is like, “You can't smell this. But I can This is awful.” So, you just encouraged me to definitely jump on and buy some more shirts for sure.
NC: Thank you. I don't think we do a great job of marketing that attribute. But again, like authentically, it's there and we want to make sure that it lives up to expectations.
KD: Well, I know a few marketers and strategists that if you need help with that, I can hook you up with them.
NC: Yeah, for sure.
RR: And lastly, I'd love to say like, I think you brought so much humility into what you do and what you've done. You touched on the fatherhood, family, running the business, leadership, while balancing internal stuff, right? While balancing the customer's needs, which we seem to think it's your circulatory system of the brand. But we will be along the ride with The Pursuit, which is the heartbeat of your brand. So, thanks a lot.
NC: Thank you. I really appreciate you guys and thanks for having me on.
© 2021 The Crux Podcast. The Crux Podcast is a production of The Brand Leader out of Greenville, South Carolina. For more information on the show or to be a guest, visit us at thecruxpodcast.com.
Listen to the Podcast on 259°: Nate Checketts of Rhone Apparel